Revelation 13

I had it on my mind to throw this out there to someone, so it might as well be you guys... .

What are your thoughts on Revelation Chapter 13?


Now, I know you boys have been around the block, as I have, a million and one times, and we all know that there isnt any grandiose 'enlightinment'' gonna come from us tossing out our ideas (We have all been down that road before).

Fact is, I looked at PC today for the first time in 1-2 months and its the same folks saying the same stuff about the same things. Brian is still trying to find someone who will "allow" him to be a gay-christian, Beau is still a beautiful man, Mavos is still youthfully smart, Certain "Sisters" are offended, and gail and vicki are playing the perfect Mr. & Mrs. elderette combo (and Im somewhere else typing about it! ). Yay-yay. My side point being---A 'Virtual Kingdom Hall' this aint (thank God), and I dont want to, or mean to place any burdens on anyone concerning anything "heavy". If you get my drift.

Jus tossin' out idears'....

However, Ive had it on my mind for a long time to look into this and here is an initial "interpretation", if you like.

The Beast from the Earth is the "democratic" Govt (lots o' stuff in that---US and French Revolutions and their fall-out)) Power and this is somewhat describing the nuclear age that started in the 40's.

Later on in Revelation, the Earth beast is linked to the 'False Prophet'.

The US/Brit power established the false 'Israel' (what I believe to be anyway) at the same time the UN/Nuclear age came about (mid 40's)...


¹And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
²And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
³And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
⁴And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
⁵And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
⁶And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
⁷And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
⁸And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
⁹If any man have an ear, let him hear.
¹⁰He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
¹¹And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
¹²And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
¹³And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
¹⁴And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
¹⁵And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
¹⁶And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
¹⁷And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
¹⁸Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

Hi Matt and Brendan,
¹³And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come
down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

I don't think this happened before the 20th Century.

But, perhaps, it could have a symbolic/spiritual explanation?
The priests of Baal couldn't, but Elijah could. This false prophet can! It may be a metaphor/word picture showing how powerful this false prophet is.

I tend to think that only when prophecy is actually fulfilled will we really understand it.
atb
Derek

Hi guys, great responses---

Mr, B & D;

I agree that Interpretum has some good information, and as regards Daniel-the little horn-the Pope-I agree. As far as Revelation and first century preterism, here are the propblems I have with it, that I havnt sufficiently had answered yet:

The Bible book of Revelation is alleged to have been written either in

1) 65 or 66 AD

or

2) 95-100 AD (which the WT clings to)


Now, my question is is this, IF #1 is TRUE, then we have the following issues/questions:

a) WHY is it necessary for John, exiled on a remote Isle, to give such a lengthy description of immediate events, in signs and symbols, through the most detailed vision ever given to a man by the Divine, when Christ the Lord himself gave a word for word-no sign and symbol/plain speaking description of events (Jerusalem) 30 years earlier that had by then (65AD) been distributed and understood throughout the Jew/Greek/Roman speaking Hellenistec world? Was Jesus plain speaking words (recorded in Matt, Mark, Luke) not good enough?

[No one, repeat, NO ONE, has sufficiently answered that one for my liking.]

b) Are we to assume that, again-from this remote Isle of Patmos, that within a few short years at best, this Revelation was then copied, dispersed all over the Roman world of that time, translated (where necessary), interpreted correctly, then acted upon, again-within this terribly short time period-especially for such a lengthy and detailed Revelation?


IF #2 was true, then, not only do the SAME questions of #1 apply, but add the following:

Why, oh WHY, would God and Christ give a Revelation (prophecy) in signs and symbols about events that had already (for the most part) already happened?

For, if it had already happened, it was NOT Revelation, or prohpecy, it was then but history told in fancy allegory, which is of no use to anyone, much less a fullfillment of Christs stated words at the begining of Revelation. [Scholar Donny tried to answer this at one time, but he had to change the meaning of the word prophecy for his entire Preteristic interpretation to fit, ala Watchtower style]

Am I missing something here?

I beleive there is a basis for the Historistic approach, I really do, but total preterism is a stretch to me, and like Derek, the Earth Beast and what it does seems to be/fit with 20th Century history the best, and with the various entities mentioned [i.e., at least to little ol
me; I dont see how anyone could really be dogmatic about any of this, as, lets face it, we are probably the least true history educated group of people/generation there has been in a long time ].

Yeah, interpretum does the legwork and presents a good outline. He’s been at this for a long time and instead of getting stuck in a rut or up his own rear end, he knows his limitations and doesn’t get carried away with his own interpretations. I think he will be a true ‘life-long learner’ and I mean this as a good thing.

Nobody, including him, really see themselves as full preterists. I see a link between full preterism and the move towards New Age, because there is nothing tangible left if every prophecy is fulfilled. I think New Age fills that vacuum.

Me, I think Rev was written in the 60s AD. I think it has the book of Zechariah as its root, with references back to Daniel and more. If this is true, perhaps it is about the return of Christ within a generation to finish the last days of the Jewish system, preceded by the state of the Christian church leading up to that time, and followed by the end of days. But it does seem like overkill if we can’t see reason for all the weird allegories, metaphors and whatever else is there to baffle us. If Rev is about an uncovering, it may not be written for us, at least not now. I’m not sure what we are expected to do with it these days. Why were Jesus’ words not enough? We’re told that these are Jesus’ words also so we might just as well ask why Jesus felt the need to add so much to what was previously written.

But we need to deal with Rev 22 with its end of the system and the picture of New Jerusalem opening up. I think it is safe to say that this goes beyond the end of the Jewish system of things. I am puzzled as to how a great span of 2000 years and more exists between the two events that are covered so briefly in the book of Rev.

Also, there is good reason to believe that Rev 12 was fulfilled in the first century. If true, it would seem very odd that the next chapter shoots 2000 years into the future.

Hi Brendan and Matt,
Yep, Interpretum may get wise enough to become an old earth creationist one day!

Preterism, and all the other eschatological paradigms have real problems. I think pre-mil has the least.

What concerns me about preterism is the usual keenness of it adherents to their cause and the apparent lack of a belief in preterism early in the Christian era.

I take your point about the Roman applications....most of us see partial fulfillment's of prophecy early in the Christian era.

I don't like the term partial preterist..I think its a nonsense label.

As the cannibal said, "I am not partial to a preterist, they give me indigestion!"

regards
Derek

Derek wrote:

Hi Brendan,
Yep, Interpretum may get wise enough to become an old earth creationist one day!

Yes indeed, anything's possible to an open mind!

And if he does change his mind, I think he is the kind who can admit it and move on, which is a good character trait, huh?

Hi Brendan,
I hope so, because irrational ideas, like when we (I) were JW's, definitely led to lack of balance.

brendan wrote:

Derek wrote:

Hi Brendan,
Yep, Interpretum may get wise enough to become an old earth creationist one day!

Yes indeed, anything's possible to an open mind!

And if he does change his mind, I think he is the kind who can admit it and move on, which is a good character trait, huh?

brendan wrote:

Derek wrote:

Hi Brendan,
Yep, Interpretum may get wise enough to become an old earth creationist one day!

Yes indeed, anything's possible to an open mind!

And if he does change his mind, I think he is the kind who can admit it and move on, which is a good character trait, huh?

I and the wife went to a Conservative Baptist Seminar once in which this guy got up and tried to sell everyone the literal 6 day creation bit, along with books and tapes "proving" his point.

I recalled a Lewis Black bit (that I will have to post some day), and I felt like taking a fossil out of my pocket and throwing it at him up there on the stage and yelling out "FOSSIL!!!". These carpetbaggers give Conservative Christians a bad-ignorant-arrogant name.


OK----here it is, feel free to discontinue if you feel it is too 'foul' in a few parts, but, at the 3:27 mark he starts in on the fossil thing. I think its extremely hilarious. Me and this guy seem to have the same physical attributes and gestures, and given the fact that we both rant in similiar fahsion, we may be related somehow....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0gAcbAGPH4

Derek wrote:

Preterism, and all the other eschatological paradigms have real problems. I think pre-mil has the least.

What concerns me about preterism is the usual keenness of it adherents to their cause and the apparent lack of a belief in preterism early in the Christian era.

Derek

I agree. I think Historism has some value to it as well. Brother Tesh is a Historist/Pre Milist. He and I have come to the same conclusions on a number of things completely independent of each other (two of which are that The Whore of Babylon is the entity of the Catholic Church, and that we are now witnessing the SPirits from the Beast, Dragon, and False Prophet gathering Kings together against Christ [Frog croaking worldwide media propagandization])

Preterism cannot answer the hard questions as to their premises, and the boots on the ground reality of how and when Revelation was written. Being a JW at one time should have taught folks that we should not hang our interpretive hat on secular dates for things (66AD or 96AD), and that we shouldnt play games with already clearly defined words (prophecy). If we have to do either, like preterists appearently do, then our conclusions will be prone to error because the premise that they are based upon are not solid.

ANYONE can, post hoc, cram their interpretation into things and have it look plausible. Have you ever seen the William Miller Chart that "proves" 1843-4 as the return of Christ? ITs VERY VERY convincing, but ultimately WRONG:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Millerite_1843_chart_2.jpg/463px-Millerite_1843_chart_2.jpg

I go back to the simple question; WHY allegorize through a vision that which has already happened when Christ's plain speaking words BEFORE the events informed his followers of what they needed to know? It makes no sense.

This is a great book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Revelation-Four-Views-Parallel-Commentary/dp/0840721285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277487318&sr=1-1

Hi guys,

You’re really coming out with the -isms. I looked at pre-milleniumism in Wiki and it says it is based on a literal interpretation of Rev 20:1-6. Are you saying, then, that this is at odds with preterism because it cannot have happened in the first century? If so, that seems perfectly sound.

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

So where does this leave us, and how do we answer your question, Matt. On the basis of Rev 20:1-6, full preterism is out. Partial preterism seems to be a bit of a contradiction in terms, so we must, I think, re-word things and say that some of Rev is fulfilled and there is more to be fulfilled – plain English. Is this the reason Rev is valid, that it concerns more than 1st century Christians. And covers a lot of ground (time and events).

Hi Brendan,
you wrote:
Is this the reason Rev is valid, that it concerns more than 1st century
Christians. And covers a lot of ground (time and events).

Yes, I think your right.

You know preterists do themselves a disservice by frequently labeling themselves. Whereas, as you say, the simple English, regarding prophecy in the Christian era, that some has been fulfilled and some is yet to be fulfilled, is quite sufficient.

regards
Derek

Unfortunately, Preterists cant be reasoned with very well, as in, its like talking to a Watchtower Witness on doctrine. They are right, those who disagree simply "dont know history", ie, arent as "knowing". Thats why scholar donny and interpretum can come across as so smug about this at times, because it quickly becomes "you just dont understand it , becuase you CANT, because you dont know as much as I do". Give me a break, man.

Yes, that's the problem with labeling. I suppose we have to defend an interpretation instead of just exploring scripture.

Some seem to use their academic credentials to defend their interpretations.

Some even say they get it straight from God.

I think either way, it's an ego trip.

Yep I agree, Mr. B. Im so happy Im uneducated, and that I dont claim 'Revelation'.


SO what value is all of this?

[I'll walk waaaay out on this limb, and we'll see what happens. ]

Lets say, hypothetically, that the following is "true":

Earth Beast=Western Deomcracy
Image of the Beast=United Nations

What happens next, is that the Earth Beast will force persons to get "the mark" of the Image of the Beast.

SO...real life event wise..lets toss it on the table...

Does the US & Euro zones give their power to the 'UN', and then force all of US to worship it, or die?

If so, and I'll throw this out on the table...eeeeeek...how much longer can these respective systems last until this occurs, or, are we right now in the process of experiencing the begining of all this?

Hi Brendan and Matt,
I am blessed, in that I have got into a place, spiritually speaking, where I am held, (with God and his Son's help) to a core of faith. However, at the same time, there is a mass of other related information that I have relegated to a sliding scale varying from the highly improbable to the highly probable explanations. If the HS does not convince me this stuff is core faith, then I am not ruffled one iota.

So whatever shifting seas of discovery wash under my boat, it will stay afloat, because its anchor is held firm by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hence I can happily say, "I just don't know!" Or, to the those with extreme conviction on the slimmest of evidence, "that's interesting!"
Which, if you heard me say it, sounds quite ingenuous...that's because I'm a bad actor and couldn't help smiling!


OTH, I enjoy a good discussion, because I've learned a lot from others.

I also find it imperative to attempt to free others from any form of mental slavery as I have been freed. Well, having said that, only the Lord Jesus can make us truly free and hopefully we are all travellers at a different stage on the same road.


This, is a very round about way, Matt, of saying that this beastly business slipped under the bridge of life, where we play theological, "Pooh Sticks"...a long time ago.

God bless you both (and anyone else looking in)
Derek

Hi Brendan,
You mention Rev 12 wrt 1st century application.

When do you think the resurrection/judgment and the ruining of the earth took place? Rev. 11:18

regards
Derek

Hi Derek,

I have been inclined for years to think of Rev 11 as future but it may not be. We usually interpret verse 18 as God will 'bring to ruin those who are ruining the earth' and look at in an ecological way. The following verse could bring us back to the 1st century if we had placed ourselves in the 21st century for verse 18. Then chapter 12 seems to continue on from chapter 11.

The difficulty with this is the reward and punishment in chapter 11:18. Could they have been handed out, in any way, in the 1st century? We can look at it from 2 perspectives - the kingdom established in the sense of 'the Son of His love' or the pre-millenium kingdom of the future.

It is very difficult indeed to form a comprehensive view of the entire context when all the terms of reference that I used to take for granted are unclear.

Regards,
Brendan.

Mr. D,

I hear where you are comming from, and for the vast vast majority of theological topics, I have done the same. This is the reason that I dont venture to far into those waters on any DB's anymore, because I just dont think much of it is relevant to me, provided one has settled thier anchor in the right spot---Jesus. .

Revelation chapters 2-4, and 13 have stuck with me as personal "need/want to knows" throughout my exit from the Cult. Being a JW not only screws up ones concept of truth and fiction, but also ones place in time and what history really means, and finding these bearings has been a personal quest of mine. Sorting through all the minutea of what is and is not relevant to someones faith in Christ seems to get easier with the passage of time, because if the New Testament teaches us ANYTHING, it is that this is the ONLY REAL thing we need to worry about, as in John 6 it says:

'What must we do to do the works of God?'

'Have faith in him whom God sent'

Yeah, I think that is very insightful, Mr. B., and I agree with much of it.

I think though, that war, not peace is the future that is planned for all of us. Ive read too much that has been written by those connected with TPTB to know that they believe that war is the single best way to physically structure and organize a controllable society.

I really do believe that this is the general plan:

http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/go-goldstein.html


IF the Catholic Church is indeed the Whore of Babylon, which I do believe it is, then we should someday see wave after wave of troops under some 'Internasional' banner dragging Cardinals, Bishops, then the Pope, out of the Vatican, hanging them by the heels, then looting that place for every penny its worth. Its also my belief that Pope Bennedict XVI is the next to the last man to hold the office of Pope.

I dont believe much outside the Bible, but Ive looked at this for a long time, including trying to learn a little latin so I could understand the origionals, and I'm comfortable saying that I believe in this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

I tend to look at this one as a bigger picture/long term temporal marker of sorts. The Catholic Church is and has been the single most dominant continuous entity for the last 2,000 years; it stretches the bonds of credulity that there wouldnt be a few words attached to that WHore by the Divine.

The Bible says that God puts it in their hearts to carry out the thought of destroying her, and I can see a scenario/tipping point occurring in which financially bankrupt governments/countries, coupled with a secular populace roiled over Church scandals (the likes of which the worst probably hasnt yet been revealed) finaly declare enough is enough, and down she goes. Meanwhile, the other apathetic type people stand back and say 'Thats too bad'.

After this, I think it gets real ugly for the 'average Joe', who will have first been conditioned into apathy and consumption, shocked and awed at the swiftness of major events, and then left to his own devices to determine his path from there on without many of the major institutions that had previously stood for centuries. The fear and panic this kind of thing will induce his hard to imagine at this point.

On a personal level, Leaving the WT was much like this for me and my wife, and it was/is allot like this for many who leave. Having endured that is actually a blessing.

I went to masses in Latin when I was a boy. I remember well the beginning “Introibo ab altare Dei” which meant I enter to the altar of God. I did 5 years of Latin in secondary (high) school and came out with “Caesar in Galliam profiscurunter” which means Caesar set out for Gaul.

I was not a good Latin scholar but one benefit I got from it was the removal of any fear of vocabulary because it teaches you that there is a root to words that can be learned by anyone so there is very little that doctors, for example, can write that is beyond the reach of the ordinary man. The mystery is gone. When I got to study Spanish in college, the Latin helped there too.

That thread about learning Latin on the PC caught my attention. Matt wants to learn it. I wish him well. He shouldn’t struggle too hard, I think, if he just does the boring grammar stuff.

Hi Brendan,
No scholar myself but my eldest was very good at languages...she did latin...All I can remember of testing her on it now is "Caecilius est in horto"

Derek wrote:

Hi Brendan,
No scholar myself but my eldest was very good at languages...she did latin...All I can remember of testing her on it now is "Caecilius est in horto"

Derek, that one wasn't in my time, or maybe my place. Is it a bit like foul language - word deleted and Jane for Latin students?

Hi Brendan,
Your pulling my leg!
It was in book 1 of her Latin course when she went to
the senior school. I hope it's not rude, I could have got the spelling
wrong .
Doesn't it mean, Caecilius was in the garden?