Loyalty

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

Hi all,
I believe loyalty is an admirable quality but I think it cannot be used as a card to play. It is appreciated by friends when given but can never be demanded but is often reciprocated.

Poor Brian thought he had built up 'Brownie points' by supporting PC admin over time. when he played his loyalty card Rez still cut him dead on her thread on spraying from the air. I think he knew his place! Smile

He found his loyalty chips had no more value than fibre washers.

But when the going gets tough the tough get going. Will he fight back I wonder?

I pity that poor guy who has been an elder and his wife has just told him if he goes apostate she'll leave him. Not much of a marriage or loyalty to spouse there.

Certainly if one's spouse loves the gnomes of Brooklyn more than they do their husband, or wife is the same in vice-versa, wife, it must hurt immensely.

regards
Derek

Subject: Re: Loyalty Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:54 pm

Hi Derek,

This is very interesting stuff! I haven’t seen the thread where Brian cashed in his loyalty card.

I get the feeling that it is a bit like that old Bob Dylan song It Ain’t Me Babe where the woman thinks her man will support her right or wrong, and he tells her he ain’t that type of person. In other words, he thought you needed at least to be perceived as right to expect loyalty.

Will he fight back? I would love to see what happens. Spraying from the air, right?

As far as I know, many JW spouses think they are married to the organisation before their spouse. I’m saying that because they seem to think that, if you are disloyal to it, you have committed adultery, and they can divorce you. It is too weird. The only justification given for divorce is adultery where the spouse is concerned. I really think that you and me and Matt are very fortunate men.

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

Absolutely, fortunate indeed!

Subject: Re: Loyalty Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:04 am

I think your heart went out to Brian a little on that thread, or you were just annoyed at Gail’s insulting dismissal of anyone disagreeing with her. Times have changed on the PC. There was a time when we would criticise this type of behaviour and challenge it firmly, but not anymore. TalkActive was banned without a word of explanation, indeed without a word at all. Brian is dismissed as a pest and we allow it. But if she gets away with it with Brian, she will just get worse and the contemptuous behaviour will reach out to anyone who dares to contradict her. I wonder what Vicky makes of it? She loves seeing men put in their place, but her Brian?

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

Hi Brendan,
I was not really annoyed, but thought the way she handled, Brian was very uncharitable.

Incidentally, what happened to Talkative fell off my radar....I know Vicky had a grudge against him in the past...they crossed swords and she had him moderated for the slightest infraction and he was eventually deleted. I'm sorry, it seems some women are much less forgiving and are more vindictive than men.

No, with Brian, I was just doing my 'knight in shining armour' routine! Smile

Having been treated badly in my early years I'm dead against injustice to anyone...even, Brian, who caused us trouble on Shelter.
I think that authority should have its shins kicked..gently in this case....once in a while. It is really uncanny how they drop into the WT model so very easily.

Vicky and Rez lost miserablywhen I took them on on the frequency of earthquakes thread some months ago. They don't admit readily they are wrong.

Keep chipping away at the edifice...one can have some fun in the process.
regards
Derek

brendan wrote:: I think your heart went out to Brian a little on that thread, or you were just annoyed at Gail’s insulting dismissal of anyone disagreeing with her. Times have changed on the PC. There was a time when we would criticise this type of behaviour and challenge it firmly, but not anymore. TalkActive was banned without a word of explanation, indeed without a word at all. Brian is dismissed as a pest and we allow it. But if she gets away with it with Brian, she will just get worse and the contemptuous behaviour will reach out to anyone who dares to contradict her. I wonder what Vicky makes of it? She loves seeing men put in their place, but her Brian?

Subject: Re: Loyalty Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:32 pm

Hi Derek,

Weird politics over there at the moment. I must admit I was annoyed at what happened with Brian, but I said nothing. Same with Talkactive. Rez told me that TA was sanctioned after consulting with several facilitators. She didn’t mention an on-going problem with Vicky and him. I have the same attitude about women in power, and it is from experience. They can be dreadful bosses, much crueller than men. In Rez’s favour, she does stuff and often relents. Vicky never, ever lets go!

I’m not sure what the politics is there. It is like there is a retrenchment among the chosen few – you know, Iso, gogh, SW. I feel already that it is getting up noses. Bro Zubair let fly, and I think it is a response to the smug self-satisfaction expressed in the topic to the new guy.

I think authority should be held to a higher responsibility and if they don’t like it, give it to someone who can deal with it. Shorter periods in power might be one answer. It seems to make people very hard over time.

I hate losing arguments too, but nobody can win them all. But we recover. It’s a shame if we not only do not get over it, but we keep a grudge going until time offers the opportunity for revenge.

They drop into Watchtower mode, you bet. And it is inevitable, when the structure is there to support it. They need to completely revamp the system on the forum, to balance power and cut down on cliques. It would take faith in our brothers and sisters, and they have enough trouble just keeping faith in Christ, I think. I thank God for yourself and also mavericks like Wayne and Yannis and others to keep some balance in the place. This little Watchtower-like outpost wants to give merit according to status, and these guys get merit through input. Who knows? If they don’t wise up, maybe the thing will implode. It would be unreal if they tossed everybody out except for the chosen few and their fans, a déjà vu...

It takes an even temper to just chip way and not become incensed at the carry-on. It’s not my way, but I see the merit in it. The fun sure goes out of it when the stakes get too high.

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 20 Join date : 2010-05-18 Location : UK

Perhaps it's a consequence of "nailing one's colours to the mast" rather than hoisting them up a flagpole line like a normal sailor. Hard to let go of one's loyalties without tearing the fabric (have I mixed enough metaphores yet?)

Still, people are competitive - overly so within faith groups. I think if the "life-and-death" notion behind beliefs could be dispensed with - make it not a mortal sin to actually be wrong about something(!) - then there wouldn't be so much fighting the indefensible, which let's be honest looks quite sad and stressful for those involved, moreso for those in charge who don't have the option of leaving if things get too heated.

Meaning no-one in particular by the way, but perhaps there's the fear of people losing what they have created? Imagine if free will - that little thing God gives us and doesn't ask us to relinquish - imagine if that freedom of belief were actually allowed within religions: What a party! they'd change beyond measure! It may sound somewhat anti-establishment of me, but it just isn't healthy to corral people's belief.

IMHO

Acts5v29

Subject: Re: Loyalty Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:28 pm

Yeah, and whatever happened to discussing things on a discussion board? Man, these guys who decide they can teach rather than discuss! It boils down to ego, I guess. Surely Christian discussion boards are a danger to our spirit if we get absorbed in the cut and thrust of winning an argument. Maybe if we could get the balance right and use forums for whatever new information comes up or whatever encouragement might be found, and avoid the negative stuff. The danger area is the unknown point where you are sucked in to an argument and you don’t know it. And it might not be some other person’s doing – you might have done it yourself!

Cathy, I think you’re a hippy. Free will, indeed! Whatever next?

Subject: Re: Loyalty Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:58 am

Derek,

Can I try to move this topic into the Christian Values section?

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

That is fine,Brendan...just do it.

brendan wrote:: Derek,

Can I try to move this topic into the Christian Values section?

Subject: Re: Loyalty Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:18 pm

Thanks Derek. It is in the new section now, place alphabetically.

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

Hi Cathy,
It could be true that those who chose to become witnesses like to be certain. When they leave they hope for, and, perhaps find, another certainty and hence, find different certainties and indeed, uncertainties in others, hard to put up with.

I was much more tolerant of the beliefs of other Christians, when a JW, than my fellow witnesses 'who had come in from outside'.

One could try the Church of England, now that is very broad church! Smile

Those who love God and his Son may well be able to view their loyalties in a more balanced way, they certainly would not divorce a spouse to please an heirachy.
God bless
Derek