Can forgiveness be reconciled with total predestination?

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

Hi all,
What place does forgiveness have if the eventuality of our salvation or damnation/predestination was foreordained before time?
regards
Derek

Hi Derek,

I think the first thing I will do is see can I access Calvin’s book and see what he says.

I rate him as a very clever man, despite his propensity for burning folk.

Maybe if I can get some info, we can see if it stands up to scrutiny.

Do you already have a line of thought on this topic?

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi Derek,

See what you make of this from Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion:

The sum of the Gospel is, not without good reason, made to consist in repentance and forgiveness of sins; and, therefore, where these two heads are omitted, any discussion concerning faith will be meager and defective, and indeed almost useless. Now, since Christ confers upon us, and we obtain by faith, both free reconciliation and newness of life, reason and order require that I should here begin to treat of both. The shortest transition, however, will be from faith to repentance; for repentance being properly understood it will better appear how a man is justified freely by faith alone, and yet that holiness of life, real holiness, as it is called, is inseparable from the free imputation of righteousness. That repentance not only always follows faith, but is produced by it, ought to be without controversy, For since pardon and forgiveness are offered by the preaching of the Gospel, in order that the sinner, delivered from the tyranny of Satan, the yoke of sin, and the miserable bondage of iniquity, may pass into the kingdom of God.

Still, when we attribute the origin of repentance to faith, we do not dream of some period of time in which faith is to give birth to it: we only wish to show that a man cannot seriously engage in repentance unless he know that he is of God. But no man is truly persuaded that he is of God until he have embraced his offered favor.

http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

I read the brief but interesting topic about forgiveness on Channel C. I’m told that the bit about Jesus asking the Father to forgive them is pious bunk, added by some sentimental clergyman. The argument in support of this is that God had no intention of forgiving His people, the time to pay had arrived!

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 339 Join date : 2010-05-12

Calvin gives me a headache.

I bought "Institutes" once, started into it in earnest, then found out that Dear Mr. Calvin was playing Protestant Pope in Geneva and having "heretics" burnt at the stake. But, O, Of course, he would have preferred a 'beheading' over a 'burning' in Servantes case, how 'humanitarian' of him... (Good grief on a popsickle stick Can forgiveness be reconciled with total predestination? Kopfschuettel

Can forgiveness be reconciled with total predestination? Kopfschuettel

).

I promptly took my "institutes" and traded it in at the local used book store.

"By their fruits you shall know them..."

I dont buy TOTAL predestination, that is, of all things, all individuals, at all times. Nope.

Hi guys,

Calvin was the first reading I did for Librivox. I really had to get into it to be able to read it with understanding. I found a brilliant mind, and yet that brilliant mind could burn people – the mind boggles.

What I found interesting is that Calvin covers every attack on his reasoning. You would think that predestination and forgiveness were incompatible, but leave it to Calvin, he has forgiveness built into his premise, and fights his corner pretty well.

But then, as Billie Holiday made famous in her song, he showed ‘strange fruit’ behaving the way he did to ‘heretics’.

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

Hi Brendan,
It's no excuse, but Calvin did live in very violent
times, when the 'Authority' could execute a person at the drop of a hat. If the WTS had wielded power in those days, I guess they would have acted in more extreme ways, like Calvin did?

Regarding his theology: Sometimes a persons followers take what they said several steps further
to apply it to the nth degree. Some Christians make some ridiculous assertions like God chose our parents specially. As is asserted in, "The Purpose Driven Life", by the leading evangelical, Rick Warren.

blessings
Derek

Ps I see Brendan I rather ineptly clicked the wrong button again last week and edited your post...I've put it right tonight.
Embarassed

I certainly never should be allowed to be a moderator Smile

Can forgiveness be reconciled with total predestination? Moz-screenshot

Hi Derek,

Enjoy the R&R. Don't worry about the admin errors. You are admin so you can do anything and get away with it!

That's a very forgiving attitude you have towards Calvin. Maybe we shouldn't look at him so much through modern eyes.

Still, I'm baffled as to how being a follower of Christ changed from being the victim to being the persecutor. Convenient twist, that!

Did you ever see that film Agora?

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

Hi Brendan,
I think, given the right or wrong circumstances, humans are capable of great good and great evil.

It is easy to be carried by the tide of popular attitudes and actions and we should never forget the historical context.

Weakness and power, greatly corrupt of the noble part of the human spirit.
I was very disappointed by the weakness and consequential lack of fairness displayed on Shelter. It concerned me far more than the abuse of power in the first place.

No, I didn't see the film and had to look it up on Wikipedia.
I'm just a country boy, Brendan!! Smile

Warm regards
Derek

brendan wrote:: Hi Derek,

Enjoy the R&R. Don't worry about the admin errors. You are admin so you can do anything and get away with it!

That's a very forgiving attitude you have towards Calvin. Maybe we shouldn't look at him so much through modern eyes.

Still, I'm baffled as to how being a follower of Christ changed from being the victim to being the persecutor. Convenient twist, that!

Did you ever see that film Agora?

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 20 Join date : 2010-05-18 Location : UK

Derek wrote:: Hi all,
What place does forgiveness have if the eventuality of our salvation or damnation/predestination was foreordained before time?
regards
Derek

Hi Derek,

If you mean God's forgiveness, then I suppose it has a slightly different place depending on the one being forgiven. Forgiveness for an habitually unrepentant would really be undeserved kindness; but in the case of someone who is genuinely trying and yearning to do well despite making a horrible mess of things

(as we all do!)

then forgiveness is surely the most beautiful of encouragements - an understanding of the unwanted influence of that part of us which is painfully tainted by experience and which wars against our better heart. To me that's much more than forgiveness though - as in "slate cleared, you're free to go" - but a real support to the spirit just when the spirit is feeling crippled and worthy of rejection. It's wonderful of God to provide something which has such immense power to heal, even though it may take us most of our lifetime to understand why it's been granted.

IMHO

Acts5v29

Hi Cathy,

I must admit that I didn’t know how to reply to your post. I thought we were going to grapple with Calvin’s predestination and where or if forgiveness might fit into his doctrine.

Your idea that undeserved kindness might be a more apt expression for the unbelieving world threw me because Paul always seemed to apply this to himself and his fellow believers. Unless, of course, you meant Christians who were habitual sinners, but I thought Paul referred to these ones as ‘trampling on the cross of Christ until there was no more forgiveness left'.

I think that a sense of encouragement from being forgiven would come from the appreciation felt by the believer. This would take a lot of faith and love for God to appreciate Him in this way.

Regards,

Brendan.

User Posts : 20 Join date : 2010-05-18 Location : UK

Sorry Brendan, I've obviously misinterpretted the topic of the thread. Can forgiveness be reconciled with total predestination? Icon_redface

Carry on everyone.

Hi Cathy,

Topics meander, no problem there. I just wasn't sure how to answer your post at first. But I found a way, and we can go from there. I think nobody wanted to get into Calvin, too heavy, perhaps.

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 364 Join date : 2010-05-02

Hi Brendan,
Calvin's language is rather deep.

What really concerns me is the paradox between mans free will and the randomness and chance of the real world and a putative belief in God who preordains all things.

There are statements in the book of Romans about the Great Potter that require harmonising with the other statements of Paul.
I think Calvinists skew it too far in the one direction and remove free will..
Warm regards
Derek

Ps. Sorry, Brendan, can't get the hang of having all this power...I modified your post to Cathy!Again!!!! Anyway, I've put it right now. Smile

Derek wrote:: Hi Brendan,
Calvin's language is rather deep.

What really concerns me is the paradox between mans free will and the randomness and chance of the real world and a putative belief in God who preordains all things.

There are statements in the book of Romans about the Great Potter that require harmonising with the other statements of Paul.
I think Calvinists skew it too far in the one direction and remove free will..
Warm regards
Derek

Ps. Sorry, Brendan, can't get the hang of having all this power...I modified your post to Cathy!Again!!!! Anyway, I've put it right now.

For shame, Derek! And we can't ban you so long as you are admin too.

I must see what Calvin has to say about free will. I'm sure it makes for joyful reading!

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 339 Join date : 2010-05-12

Here's a mind-bender:

Did God predestin Calvin and his Geneva Enclave to Burn Servantes at the stake, or, was it Johnny's 'Free Will' that did it?

Hooooo!

Can forgiveness be reconciled with total predestination? Icon_geek

Here is a taster of Calvin on free will:

God has provided the soul of man with intellect, by which he might discern good from evil, just from unjust, and might know what to follow or to shun, reason going before with her lamp; whence philosophers, in reference to her directing power, have called her "to hegemonikon" (see http://www.psyche.com/psyche/cube/cube_stoic_phil.html). To this he has joined will, to which choice belongs. Man excelled in these noble endowments in his primitive condition, when reason, intelligence, prudence, and judgement, not only sufficed for the government of his earthly life, but also enabled him to rise up to God and eternal happiness. Thereafter choice was added to direct the appetites, and temper all the organic motions; the will being thus perfectly submissive to the authority of reason.

In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life. It were here unseasonable to introduce the question concerning the secret predestination of God, because we are not considering what might or might not happen, but what the nature of man truly was. Adam, therefore, might have stood if he chose, since it was only by his own will that he fell; but it was because his will was pliable in either directions and he had not received constancy to persevere, that he so easily fell. Still he had a free choice of good and evil; and not only so, but in the mind and will there was the highest rectitude, and all the organic parts were duly framed to obedience, until man corrupted its good properties, and destroyed himself.

Hence the great darkness of philosophers who have looked for a complete building in a ruin, and fit arrangement in disorder. The principle they set out with was, that man could not be a rational animal unless he had a free choice of good and evil. They also imagined that the distinction between virtue and vice was destroyed, if man did not of his own counsel arrange his life. So far well, had there been no change in man. This being unknown to them, it is not surprising that they throw every thing into confusion. But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labour under manifold delusion, making a heterogeneous mixture of inspired doctrine and philosophical opinions, and so erring as to both.

User Posts : 20 Join date : 2010-05-18 Location : UK

brendan wrote:: Here is a taster of Calvin on free will:

God has provided the soul of man with intellect, by which he might discern good from evil, just from unjust, and might know what to follow or to shun, reason going before with her lamp; whence philosophers, in reference to her directing power, have called her "to hegemonikon" (see http://www.psyche.com/psyche/cube/cube_stoic_phil.html). To this he has joined will, to which choice belongs. Man excelled in these noble endowments in his primitive condition, when reason, intelligence, prudence, and judgement, not only sufficed for the government of his earthly life, but also enabled him to rise up to God and eternal happiness. Thereafter choice was added to direct the appetites, and temper all the organic motions; the will being thus perfectly submissive to the authority of reason.

In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life. It were here unseasonable to introduce the question concerning the secret predestination of God, because we are not considering what might or might not happen, but what the nature of man truly was. Adam, therefore, might have stood if he chose, since it was only by his own will that he fell; but it was because his will was pliable in either directions and he had not received constancy to persevere, that he so easily fell. Still he had a free choice of good and evil; and not only so, but in the mind and will there was the highest rectitude, and all the organic parts were duly framed to obedience, until man corrupted its good properties, and destroyed himself.

Hence the great darkness of philosophers who have looked for a complete building in a ruin, and fit arrangement in disorder. The principle they set out with was, that man could not be a rational animal unless he had a free choice of good and evil. They also imagined that the distinction between virtue and vice was destroyed, if man did not of his own counsel arrange his life. So far well, had there been no change in man. This being unknown to them, it is not surprising that they throw every thing into confusion. But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labour under manifold delusion, making a heterogeneous mixture of inspired doctrine and philosophical opinions, and so erring as to both.

Acts5v29

Hi Cathy,

You heard how it is written:

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, John Calvin, and understanding every jot and tittle of what you wrote. Very Happy

Non-academic Christians are predestined for perdition

.

Regards,
Brendan.

User Posts : 339 Join date : 2010-05-12

A question:

If I'm not mistaken, is it not the Catholic Church that tought/teaches "Free Will"?

If so, could it be that Calvin is arguing against ANYTHING Catholic, in a manner similiar to what the WT does (You know, stake NOT cross, "undeserved kindness" NOT grace, etc.)?

Just a thought.

User Posts : 339 Join date : 2010-05-12

brendan wrote:: Hi Cathy,

You heard how it is written:

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, John Calvin, and understanding every jot and tittle of what you wrote.

Non-academic Christians are predestined for perdition .

Regards,
Brendan.

Hahahaha....

SO, is that a yes or a no on God predestinating Johnny C's frying Servantes at the stake, but wishing he would have beheaded him instead?

Can forgiveness be reconciled with total predestination? Icon_razz

Propmin wrote:: SO, is that a yes or a no on God predestinating Johnny C's frying Servantes at the stake, but wishing he would have beheaded him instead?

I think we would need to delve a little further into Calvin's arguments and the counter-arguments to attempt to answer that question.

User Posts : 339 Join date : 2010-05-12

brendan wrote:

Propmin wrote:: SO, is that a yes or a no on God predestinating Johnny C's frying Servantes at the stake, but wishing he would have beheaded him instead?

I think we would need to delve a little further into Calvin's arguments and the counter-arguments to attempt to answer that question.

Yeah, I really dont know beans about the ins and outs of Johnny C's 'theories', I'm just stirrin' the pot on this one.

On the other hand, the Bible seems to give pretty simple statements in a consistent manner that indicate that we have a CHOICE:

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
(Deu 30:15-18)

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother
(1Jn 3:7-10)

Me neither. I just read a few chapters of his book and thought wow, I’d hate to argue against this guy. If persuasion was truth, he would probably be found true.

But the episode in Deuteronomy is pretty plain speaking, I think. Calvin may have, even probably has, some more academic explanation of ‘the choice’. It wouldn’t surprise me if he were to say that this was not addressed to Christians anyway so its principle doesn’t apply, but I’m not convinced. Where the verses from 1John are concerned, I think he would argue the idea that if you become a Christian and then default, that shows that you were only a Christian in name because real Christians don’t go bad.

I think that the advice given by Paul about Christians who ‘trample on the cross of Christ until there is no more cover for sin left’ argues well against this.