The origin of sprituality in humans

Hi all,
As believers, perhaps we can ask ourselves a very basic question:

Were there other humans alive at the time of God initiating his plan to disclose himself to those he nominated as his provisional spiritual children?
Regards
Derek

Mr. Derek--

A clarifying question: When did this 'nomination' take place (in general)?

I guess I am asking to clarify who what when where...


thanks-


m.

Hi Matt,
Well, we have the Eden account, which could be viewed as an allegory illustrating a truth.

God, the creator of all life, reaching out in his love to we creatures of flesh and blood is the substance of what occurred.

We are built in the configuration of placental primates yet God loves and desires us to be in his image. His action took place insulated from the 'rough world' outside but perhaps not 6,000 years ago.

But I find it very hard to believe the cycle of nature and human suffering was brought about by a simple test of obedience.

What man demonstrated in the Eden account was his need for God and his need to be liberated from a world of change and decay. God's purpose all along to save, we potentially spiritual flesh and blood creatures, was his future redeeming sacrifice by Christ.


Man's fall was, in effect, a failure to take hold of the hand God held out to him. Of course God knew that before he put him in Eden!

So Eden became an object lesson for us and also a reason for hope that we are not lost when our bodies fail.
What is more the account contained a promise that when realized would enable us to know what God was really like and how so very much he loved us.

peace to you
Derek

Hi Brendan,
I just don't know, we do not have enough information.

It's a possibility!

Also, God, the gene manipulator par excellence, is perfectly capable of shaping another Homo sapien and bringing him into spiritual awareness in a protected environment.
Regards
Derek

brendan wrote:

Hi Derek,

Am I jumping the gun to infer that you are thinking of a human creature being taken from the world at large and transferred to Eden to be re-created as a spiritually aware human being?

Regards,
Brendan.

Perhaps the 'issue' really is how the account of Eden is viewed.

I would also challenge the notion of "a single test". The "tree" was there day after day after day after day for who knows how long. It could also be argued that the tree probably wasnt anything 'special' to look at.

However, if this is all just an allegory...what the diff?

If Adam is an Allegory, why isnt Christ (as the 2nd Adam)?


[I have no evidence that Gen 2:7, that prior to it, and that after it, isnt anything other than what it says. ]

Yes---because something literal contains an allegory within the actions/words, does NOT mean that this "something" is, in and of itself ("per-se") merely a 'story' and NOT a lieteral flesh and blood individual who performed acts later to have greater meaning. This is pretty much where I am at on this matter .

This is one of the things that make the Bible and that which is contained therein a 'special treasure'.

I agree Mr. Brandan concerning your initial slant on adultery/fornication be it physical or spiritual.

The Whore is in opposition to the Bride, in both instances. The Bride is chaste, clean, faithful, the Whore is the opposite. An interesting study would be to biblically look at the definition of Spiritual Whoredom vs. the Bride, as a consideration of contrasts.


But on the point at hand, it goes back to the HOW of creation.

Hi Matt,
You wrote:

Propmin wrote:

This is one of the things that make the Bible and that which is contained therein a 'special treasure'.

But on the point at hand, it goes back to the HOW of creation.

Such a very little question, (how?) and nobody really knows the answer.

Many of the elements in the dust we are made from was forged in a supernova.

The water in our bodies, perhaps, came from the comets of the Ort Cloud.

We are the stuff dreams are made of.

regards
Derek

Derek wrote:

Such a very little question, (how?) and nobody really knows the answer.

I suppose its a matter of faith.

As said before, Faith and certainty dont attend the same parties. DO they?

I actually think that its best this way. I suppose its what makes faith what it is.

Hi Matt,
As far as we know we are the only life forms, certainly on Earth, that seek to understand the Creator's work. The understanding gained from our search is a source of awe to the person of faith and many who purport to be agnostic can be overcome by awe.

Also our knowledge of science and engineering, when used for the good of mankind, is a tremendous asset.

I didn't think humans were capable of much in the way of certainty.
Death, I suppose is certain until the Lord returns and it is very highly probably night will follow our present daylight.

Peace to all
Derek

Hi Brendan,
This is not a subject one can be dogmatic about.
The account, for most Christians, is held in tension between the literal.
Re: the young earth creationist approach of man and woman being created on the same twenty four hour day and on the other hand, Divinely ordained, biologos.

Since, I cannot believe the former, the latter has to incorporate God acting specially to humans set in a protected environment apart from the rough world outside.

I take on faith that the account in Genesis can harmonised with the reality, if only we knew what the reality was in fact. If there is allegory it does not shake my faith one iota.

So, I don't get too upset about the archetypal Eve being the mother of all living. God's, Eve, however she was formed, was potentially the mother of a spiritual race of humans with eternal life in God's presence, but of course she failed, as did Adam.

They had a good start being literally one in flesh...did that mean Eve had the same genes as Adam..except for the male chromosome?
We are back in the realms of speculation and the answer again eludes us.

warm regards
Derek

brendan wrote:

Hi guys,

The ideal view on all this for a traditional Christian is probably to view man’s spiritual awareness as an integral part of the package when he was created. Maybe that’s a bit simple, though. Adam and Eve seemed to be well aware of God’s existence but spiritual awareness seems to involve appreciation for God’s ways and they failed that test.

If God took man from the rest of our species and placed him in Eden, we have a homo sapiens who is transformed from a base life and created in the image of God – upgraded, in a sense. I haven’t heard anyone suggest that God took a female homo sapiens from the world at large and placed her in Eden too. I think this would be the obvious way to re-create these beings in the image of God. But Genesis’ account tells of a very strange process for the creation of Eve, which the apostle Paul reckoned was part of that sacred secret and also was instructive in the way that woman came from man and then man from woman so there was a mutual dependency between them for life.

I don’t know how we can hold on to these mystical processes if we bring Adam and Eve in from a primitive life outside Eden. Especially, I can’t make Eve fit. I feel that the creation account is a mix of literal and allegorical elements. If it is completely allegorical, what possible truths that fit the long-term history of man might be placed on the metaphors we are given?

Regards,
Brendan.

There is a 'leap' that some make when considering Genesis, it seems...

That is, if Adam was a real flesh and blood guy, then the "day" in question must be a 24 hour one...

And once this is established, then it all becomes allegorical because a 24 hour creative day is absurd...

Hmmmmmmm.....

I gave the literal 24 hour creative day believers a good hearing, I really did, at a Baptist Church earlier this year. I decided PDQ that it was ludicrous nonsense. I also decided that those who make a living at selling books and dvd's that teach their particular 'slant', make me sick, and the next time I see this kind of BS trotted out in front of me as "truth" Im going to leave, and possibly turnover a table or two on my way out (believe it or not, the table thing was my wife's idea... )

Is there anything that says we must define "day" as 24 hours? I dont see that anywhere...

peace-

matt

Matt is always joking when I complain about something 'nature' oriented that I should 'consult the manufacturer". :-)

I think that is the best answer to this question in all honesty. Genesis is a testimony written down about the beginning of things. It explains things in general terms to show us a concept. Because we are accustomed to believe things only our eyes can see, our mind has trouble grasping the language used, and what it is trying to convey. The testimony given seems broad and simple, and it becomes easy to fill in the blanks.

Theologians, scholars, and religious groups for centuries have 'filled in the blanks' according to personal beliefs, agendas, and political pressure, and what we are left with is a distorted mound of contrived evidence that is impossible to wade through.

The only answer is to ask the one to whom it testifies, to explain the details.

Love
Lynn

ps.. I was the one who wanted to turn over the tables on the salesman at the church, and it was Matt who was the calm one.. lol..

Hi Lynn,
You wrote:
I was the one who wanted to turn over the tables on the salesman at the church, and it was Matt who was the calm one.. lol.. Very Happy

Of course you have very good company in turning tables over!
God bless
Derek